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Dr. Strangem0nty: How I learned to stop bitching and love the sports
February 19th 2008, 23:50 CET by Greg

Cricket sucks! Football rules! Moar sports!

This was made in response to his post that the NFL season was over, so here's a new sports topic.
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Home » Topic: Dr. Strangem0nty: How I learned to stop bitching and love the sports

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#13 by Shadarr
2008-02-20 07:52:11
shadarr@gmail.com http://digital-luddite.com
35 isn't that old in the age of HGH.

Witnesses in the house heard Jones say "why did you pee on me Pooh Bear?" A few moments later, the witness heard the son say "Mama you done stabbed me."
#14 by m0nty
2008-02-20 07:56:12
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
Mein F├╝hrer! I can walk!
#15 by yotsuya
2008-02-21 01:31:55
Got my tickets to go see Shaq's debut with the Suns tonight. Should be fun.
#16 by McBain
2008-02-21 22:35:36
Got my tickets to go see Shaq's debut with the Suns tonight. Should be fun.

Why would you excitedly support a team that made such a horrific trade?  Marion was producing .314 wins per 48 minutes, behind only Nash.  Shaq has produced 0.102.  That is the wins produces efficiency of an *average* NBA player.  What was Steve Kerr thinking?

Sure you had to move Marion to get value, but trading him for an average player seems like a big mistake.  Average players are in the freely available pool of talent.

If I were a Suns fan, I'd be unhappy.

#17 by yotsuya
2008-02-21 22:44:23
If I were a Suns fan, I'd be unhappy.


But you're not, so it doesn't matter. I go to watch games, not crunch numbers. Did you see the game last night?
#18 by McBain
2008-02-21 22:50:00
But you're not, so it doesn't matter.

Uh ok, I can still lament that one of the strongest teams in the West has been broken.  They will win 4/5ths of the games they would have with Marion.  That's Zeke style management.

I go to watch games, not crunch numbers.

You're just fucking trolling me now.  God forbid I actually include some evidential analysis when thinking about the games I spend my life watching.

#19 by CheesyPoof
2008-02-21 22:54:31
I understand yot's point. It's like guys around a bar talking sports and here you come with a stat sheet pointing out how everyone is wrong. We're talking about sports the way an armchair fan looks at it and we specifically don't have the the (sabermetic) stats to back it up, so it takes some wind out of the sails.

Now, I don't want to be a killjoy and make you take your stat sheet and go home, but I hope you get my meaning.

<Hugin_len> Basically, cheesy doesn't have awful taste in music, he's simply very white.
#20 by yotsuya
2008-02-21 23:07:36
McBain-

Again, did you watch the game? Have you seen many Suns games this season? They were NOT going to win a title this year. They have a great record inflated by a 20-2 record against the woefully weak Eastern Conference and a .average 500 record against the West, including a sub .500 record against the West contenders.

Also, your stat sheets and wins per minutes don't take in to account how Marion and his attitude was weighing the team down. This is a rejuvinated team, because the guy sulking in the corner is gone. You can tell just by watching them.
#21 by Shadarr
2008-02-21 23:27:40
shadarr@gmail.com http://digital-luddite.com
That's Zeke style management.

Colangelo is in Toronto now.  It doesn't surprise me at all that the team he built in Phoenix is starting to unravel.

Witnesses in the house heard Jones say "why did you pee on me Pooh Bear?" A few moments later, the witness heard the son say "Mama you done stabbed me."
#22 by McBain
2008-02-21 23:34:42
Again, did you watch the game?

No.

Have you seen many Suns games this season?

Some.

They were NOT going to win a title this year.

Why not?  They were a leading team and things in the playoffs can bounce in odd ways.

They have a great record inflated by a 20-2 record against the woefully weak Eastern Conference and a .average 500 record against the West, including a sub .500 record against the West contenders.

You only have to win 1-2 series againt a Western contender to make the finals against an eastern team.  The trade made them statistically worse, so I don't see how that helps them this or any other season.  Shaq is just too old.

Cheesy, I don't know how my stat analysis is any less armchair, I just like evidence and reason for the things that people say about sports teams.

#23 by McBain
2008-02-21 23:36:35
Yot, I hope you have fun watching the game, but man, I'd be really unhappy with the Suns right now.

#24 by yotsuya
2008-02-22 00:01:24
McBain-

Don't worry, there are plenty of people here who feel the same way you do. If you would have watched the game last night, you would have seen that Shaq is going to be fine.
#25 by G-Man
2008-02-22 00:04:50
Maybe Shaq will help sell tickets more than actual wins would. Isn't the management and ownership of sports franchises all about making money ultimately?
#26 by yotsuya
2008-02-22 00:06:20
No, the Suns have had 100 straight sellouts. They didn't bring him here for tickets, they brought him here to counter Tim Duncan.
#27 by CheesyPoof
2008-02-22 00:07:50
If it's all about making money, then WTF is Isiah still doing with the Knicks?

<Hugin_len> Basically, cheesy doesn't have awful taste in music, he's simply very white.
#28 by yotsuya
2008-02-22 00:08:55
That's what I want to know. How does he still have a job?
#29 by eggbert
2008-02-22 00:09:16
http://www.stuffresearch.com
You're assuming the Suns could get equal (statistical) value for Marion anywhere else. Everyone knew he was unhappy and they've been shopping him for over a year. He had an (essentially) expiring contract, and it was almost certain he was going to skip out in the offseason due to his unhappiness and their inability to afford an extension for him, so staying pat wasn't a viable option. I'd bet that with Gasol off the table there wasn't much left out there for Marion.

You could argue Gasol or Ron Artest as better fits, but apparently Memphis' GM smokes crack, and Artest is selling high right now. With this trade you're at least getting rid of Marcus Banks' horrible contract, and have an outside shot at Shaq getting healthy and becoming a presence again for Nash's waning years. It's obviously not as good as the Pau Gasol trade (what is?), and they've pretty much acknowledged it's a huge gamble and not equal value, but they're at least trying something to get past the hump before going into the books with all the other almost great teams.
#30 by McBain
2008-02-22 00:31:20
Maybe Shaq will help sell tickets more than actual wins would. Isn't the management and ownership of sports franchises all about making money ultimately?

A valid point.

#31 by McBain
2008-02-22 00:32:54
You're assuming the Suns could get equal (statistical) value for Marion anywhere else.

No.  I'm assuming they could have gotten someone who produces more wins than in *average* player, which is what Shaq does.

#32 by eggbert
2008-02-22 01:37:08
http://www.stuffresearch.com
No.  I'm assuming they could have gotten someone who produces more wins than in *average* player, which is what Shaq does.

Like who? Shawn Marion makes something like $17 million this season. What sort of package of stellar win producers is out there made up of players who can match that salary, that a team would be willing to part with? I mean, it would be nice if they could get Lamar Odom and Luke Walton for example, but that's not going to happen. Only one I can see happening in a quick survey, that matches up salary wise, is Kirelenko and a 2-4 million dollar Utah reserve, and even that's iffy.
#33 by Dingle
2008-02-22 02:13:05
mylifesazoo@gmail.com
I like how, in football and stuff that ends with -ball (e.g. basketball), there's always a bunch of roided-out gangly folk who are always trying to like, get the ball from the guy and stuff.
#34 by yotsuya
2008-02-22 03:24:44
McBain obviously thinks quality big men grow on trees and that teams are willing to part with them.

And McB, that's cool that you like to crunch numbers and stuff. It can be fun. Just remember, though, that 'statistically' speaking, your '19-0' book should have been sent to you by now. It doesn't always happen.
#35 by McBain
2008-02-22 07:26:56
McBain obviously thinks quality big men grow on trees and that teams are willing to part with them.

That's not what I'm saying at all.  I'm saying Shaq's production is abysmal, its a horrible trade, even considering salary.  The Sun's should take an average big man just because "quality big men don't grow on trees".  You're being crazy.

t can be fun. Just remember, though, that 'statistically' speaking, your '19-0' book should have been sent to you by now. It doesn't always happen.

You're being an asshole now, and for no good reason.  Fuck you you fucking fucking fuck.

#36 by m0nty
2008-02-22 07:27:55
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
Aww, poor McBain.
#37 by yotsuya
2008-02-22 07:30:46
McBain-

When did you turn into FoRmaT? I've never seen you act like such a pussy.
#38 by McBain
2008-02-22 07:31:47
Fuck you, cunt.

#39 by yotsuya
2008-02-22 07:32:44
And I think eggbert explained everything pretty concisely. There's nothing more I can add. You're thinking of the Suns in terms of the 2004-2007 teams, and I'm telling you, they're not the same. Honestly, they're probably not going to win it this year, either.
#40 by yotsuya
2008-02-22 07:33:12
Seriously, man, what's up?
#41 by CheesyPoof
2008-02-22 07:34:05
I dunno, but I watched the final two minutes of XLII the other night and it's still awesome.

<Hugin_len> Basically, cheesy doesn't have awful taste in music, he's simply very white.
#42 by McBain
2008-02-22 07:34:12
Shaq's production speaks for itself.  Its a terrible trade.  He's an average player and next year he'll be below average.  The best move would have been no move... if the argument is who else was avaible, then the answer is "don't trade".

#43 by CheesyPoof
2008-02-22 07:34:20
I guess if it was on the other end I'd still be sore.

<Hugin_len> Basically, cheesy doesn't have awful taste in music, he's simply very white.
#44 by McBain
2008-02-22 07:35:38
Seriously, man, what's up?

What do you mean?  You bring up an obviously sore spot in a completely unrelated fashion that doesn't respond to me in any meaningful way?  Oh, and big surprise, its annoying!

#45 by McBain
2008-02-22 07:36:23
I guess if it was on the other end I'd still be sore.

No shit?

#46 by yotsuya
2008-02-22 07:36:54
Well, again, they weren't going to win with Shawn Marion, so why not roll the dice? I didn't run out and buy a Shaq jersey and proclaim us the team to beat, but I don't think it's a bad shot.
#47 by CheesyPoof
2008-02-22 07:37:51
I don't know whats worse, losing the Super Bowl like that, or the blow out the Giants got back in 2000. There's something to be said of the blowout putting your team out of their misery quickly to somewhat soften the punch.

<Hugin_len> Basically, cheesy doesn't have awful taste in music, he's simply very white.
#48 by yotsuya
2008-02-22 07:39:36
What do you mean?  You bring up an obviously sore spot in a completely unrelated fashion that doesn't respond to me in any meaningful way?  Oh, and big surprise, its annoying![/url]
Unrelated. Again, if we look at the stats and numbers (which you were doing), the Pats should have won by 30. I wasn't doing it to pick on you, I was pointing out that then numbers don't always tell the whole story. I mean, hell, the Heat are 0-4 in games Marion has played in. Does that mean anything (other than the Heat are really shitty)?
#49 by McBain
2008-02-22 07:39:43
Well, again, they weren't going to win with Shawn Marion,

It's completely bewildering to me that you're so convinced of this.

#50 by yotsuya
2008-02-22 07:40:26
Urk.

What do you mean?  You bring up an obviously sore spot in a completely unrelated fashion that doesn't respond to me in any meaningful way?  Oh, and big surprise, its annoying!

Unrelated? Again, if we look at the stats and numbers (which you were doing), the Pats should have won by 30. I wasn't doing it to pick on you, I was pointing out that then numbers don't always tell the whole story. I mean, hell, the Heat are 0-4 in games Marion has played in. Does that mean anything (other than the Heat are really shitty)?
#51 by McBain
2008-02-22 07:41:57
Yot, this is one of those instances where you make me think you don't really understand how statistics work.

#52 by yotsuya
2008-02-22 07:42:45
McB-

Again, you said you've seen SOME Suns games this year. I've seen MOST. Marion, for all the good he does, has some serious holes. He can't create his own shot. He takes too many ill-advised threes. He has a history of disappearing in the playoffs. And he's been a locker room issue for the past three years. He's not content being #3. He's rather be #2 on a 9 win team than the number #3 option on a contender.
#53 by yotsuya
2008-02-22 07:44:49
Oh, I know how statistics work. I also know that in sports, there are many other factors that cancel them out.
#54 by G-Man
2008-02-22 07:47:33
He clearly doesn't. Remember those gambling odds discussions?
#55 by McBain
2008-02-22 07:48:01
Again, you said you've seen SOME Suns games this year. I've seen MOST.

It's as if actually watching the games some how changes the production of the players were talking about.  You and Joe Morgan should get a room.

Marion, for all the good he does, has some serious holes. He can't create his own shot. He takes too many ill-advised threes.

His win production is fucking great.

He has a history of disappearing in the playoffs.

Small sample size.  Similar to Super Bowls and Yankees/A-Rod series in that way.

And he's been a locker room issue for the past three years.

I'm not sure what that has to do with his win production, which is awesome.  I'm mostly concerned with what happens on the basketball court.

#56 by G-Man
2008-02-22 07:48:52
Then again, most people don't understand probability/statistics. Remember Jibble and the sample size wars of 2006?
#57 by Dingle
2008-02-22 07:49:54
mylifesazoo@gmail.com
I think this sums it all up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij738Q-wWmk
#58 by BobJustBob
2008-02-22 07:51:12
So what are you up to these days, G-Man? You never talk about yourself.

"I don't like story in games." - Soren Johnson
#59 by CheesyPoof
2008-02-22 07:51:36
What about mitigating factors of the team surrounding the player in basketball? Baseball is very much and individual sport WRT batting and pitching, but I don't know/care enough about basketball to know if there is any normalization for the team around the player.

<Hugin_len> Basically, cheesy doesn't have awful taste in music, he's simply very white.
#60 by CheesyPoof
2008-02-22 07:53:31
I know enough about probability and statistics to know they are boring as hell. My wife took a business statistics course and I thought that I could get into the text, but, ugh, no.

<Hugin_len> Basically, cheesy doesn't have awful taste in music, he's simply very white.
#61 by lwf
2008-02-22 07:54:02
Eli Manning is a pretty fucking bad QB statistically speaking, probably worse than Kurt Warner.

My name? Jones... Enema Bag Jones. Wii.
#62 by CheesyPoof
2008-02-22 07:55:34
He was pretty good during the playoffs though. A bunch of touchdowns and no INT's (that were his fault).

<Hugin_len> Basically, cheesy doesn't have awful taste in music, he's simply very white.
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